Proposal to lower the consensus requirement for GA voting

[BenBurton]

Also, thank you for pointing our another thing abarr, yes, research. The tech proposal was 10 pages long, roughly 7 of those pages were devoted to JUST THE PRINTER. People sit around demanding all this research and shopping and whatever other shit they can pull out of their ass. NOT A SINGLE PERSON READ THE PROPOSAL.
NONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED AGAINST IT, READ IT. How is ANYTHING even remotely complicated ever supposed to pass under those conditions ?
The prevailing message to people doing the work here becomes "leaderless movement = instead of having 1-3 bosses, now every occupier is your boss" The amount of disrespect shown to the people doing all the grunt work is disgusting. What is supposed to keep people going in this movement ? They aren't being paid. Many people do it at great personal cost, not only in the impact it has on their livelihood but immense amounts of time invested on top of the irony that they are also the ones doing a lot of the donating.

Tech is a testament to this fact, it has steadily expanded over the months with zero dollars from GA, ZERO DOLLARS. Arts and rec have gotten more money from GA then tech up till now.
I know why, because apparently tech is magic, and free. It is this utopia we have been hiding from everyone. Where everything is free, and everyone is just having a grand ol time playing games and just general dickery. It's a blast, I don't know why there are only 3 active members. oh wait, I think I know what it is, its the whole "hiding utopia" thing. That must be what it is, not because it fucking sucks.

So this fiction that there is a worry about the responsibility of the people DOING THE WORK, and money just being thrown around willy nilly, referred to as "toys" in another thread. Which short note on how insulting that is. Toys ? really ? years of education, advanced electronics backgrounds, being paid to work in a highly technical field, working hours on end day after day AND A TEN GODAMN PAGE PROPOSAL, boiled down to "toys".
Like apparently people assume we are going to be putting the routers in our pants, or spending hours on end making shadow puppets with a projector, or printing out giant funny pictures to put in the bathroom on a specialty printer. THIS is what people think goes on ? are you fucking serious ?

And yet with all that bullshit, we are expected to get 90% approval. Which we didn't.
You set yourselves up to fail then wonder why, as if it is a surprise.

We need to have a teach-in about critical thinking, but I don't think anyone would attend.

How much a month does Occupy Chicago spend on large format printing? Maybe the answer to that is why people didn't like the printer proposal.

Or maybe it's because you can outsource printing pretty easily without having to worry about theft, vandalism or accidents.

I still haven't heard a good business case for having a large format printer. Not that I doubt one could be made, but I've been listening and it's not really clear.

Your assertion that anyone against the printer is incapable of critical thinking is simply wrong.

[mcsheffe]

Hate to harp on a subject but why are monies spent put on line so we can see who gets money and why.We are supposed to be a transparent movement where is the money and whats the big secret Is there a reason and what is it? I have bought this subject up several times and am very tired of not even a reply.Why would anybody donate to a mystery.

[mattjohnson]

Todd,

This is a bit off topic from this thread, but you mentioned the frustration with tech having few active members.

I'm happy to become an active member of the tech working group. I've only ever seen a meeting announced once, and I went to it. If there is work to be done, let me know, I'd love to ease some of the burden. I have the skillset required and I'm interested in donating my time for free, which is something I've mentioned a few times but have never been given something to work on or given permissions to do the development / administrative work on my own.

Matt

[Ella Mae]

Todd,

I was there last night & voted for the printer; I think (though could be wrong) that the people who voted against it did so because of the cost. It would be helpful if someone were to at least give a general idea of how much money OC has. That does not fall on you, of course. Anyway let the people who would use it propose it next time!

My personal feeling is that it's not just that the voting in a GA that takes so long, but all announcements, calls for assistance, soap box, etc. More time to explain and perhaps discuss proposals would be better -- also, I think some moderators are better at keeping order than others, from side talk and going out of format and so on. Anyway thanks for all the work you do!

Ruth

[Todd]

How much a month does Occupy Chicago spend on large format printing? Maybe the answer to that is why people didn't like the printer proposal.

Or maybe it's because you can outsource printing pretty easily without having to worry about theft, vandalism or accidents.

I still haven't heard a good business case for having a large format printer. Not that I doubt one could be made, but I've been listening and it's not really clear.

Your assertion that anyone against the printer is incapable of critical thinking is simply wrong.

Actually, if you watched the live stream of the GA you would notice your assertion is wrong.

"Maybe the answer to that is why people didn't like the printer proposal."
4 people didn't out of 23, that is a minority for one. None of the people who opposed, would be using the printer if we had one. So people who wouldn't use it anyway, are the ones opposed, not the people who would use it.

"you can outsource printing pretty easily without having to worry about theft, vandalism or accidents."
If that was true, then why did people bitch after the voting, specific that they are sick of using markers to make banners ? Because it is so cheap and easy and they preferred the hours of manual labor, as apposed to printing it out in like 5min. This also ignores the fact that people are ONCE AGAIN asking occupiers to wither pay out of pocket, or present a proposal to GA to have something printed, then request funds for outsourcing printing, thus forcing the process to take upwards of 2 weeks TO GET SOMETHING PRINTED. Throwing bureaucracy at something to try and save a few dollars is pretty much the epitome of all that is wrong with our country presently, way to keep perpetuating that.

This once again demonstrates the people voting against, are people who would not have used it anyway.

"Your assertion that anyone against the printer is incapable of critical thinking is simply wrong."
I didn't say they were incapable, I said they were unwilling. I repeated that like 3 times actually.

Voting against something simply because you personally would not have utility for it, is fucking retarded and does demonstrate a lack of critical thinking skills, when in the context of utilizing technology and other people to further our cause.

[Todd]

And one last thing, why does this need a "business plan" When did occupy become a business ? Are we planning to start a printing business ? are we going to be selling posters on the street to people ? I think this underlines a fundamental misunderstanding of what we have already stated we would like to use a large format printer for, but I have a better question, why don't you or anyone, try to find a printer with similar quality 2400x1200dpi 24in printable surface, with a similar price.

I am pretty sick of people pretending no research was done, even though it was listed in exquisite detail 7 pages long. Sorry the tons of research didn't include a business plan for a non-business entity, mostly for the same reason I didn't draw up a business plan before I bought my laptop and people don't draw up business plans when then are going to go on a solidarity march.

[BenBurton]

Actually, if you watched the live stream of the GA you would notice your assertion is wrong.

You know what? I was watching the livestream but it kept cutting out. Not sure who's end that was on but I did my best.

"you can outsource printing pretty easily without having to worry about theft, vandalism or accidents."
If that was true, then why did people bitch after the voting, specific that they are sick of using markers to make banners ? Because it is so cheap and easy and they preferred the hours of manual labor, as apposed to printing it out in like 5min. This also ignores the fact that people are ONCE AGAIN asking occupiers to wither pay out of pocket, or present a proposal to GA to have something printed, then request funds for outsourcing printing, thus forcing the process to take upwards of 2 weeks TO GET SOMETHING PRINTED. Throwing bureaucracy at something to try and save a few dollars is pretty much the epitome of all that is wrong with our country presently, way to keep perpetuating that.

Todd, I like you, but you're an asshole for continuously blaming me for this. I'm not sure why you're so emotionally wrapped up in this but I'm offering questions and answers as to why the proposal failed so we can improve the process. I'm doing this AFTER I ALREADY SAID I WOULD SUPPORT IT HAD I BEEN ABLE TO MAKE IT TO THE GA WHEN IT WAS VOTED ON.

So stop being a dick about it. And specifically stop being a dick to me about it because I'll just turn around and call you an asshole for doing it instead of having a rational discussion about the issue. Your emotional response to it is clouding your thinking.

That said, asking people to sometimes pay out of pocket for things like signs can be a very good thing for a volunteer movement like this. People long for ways to contribute and feel part of what's going on. People also have a vested interest in both the property of and outcome when they've invested their time, energy and effort into things.

When it's all paid for by "leadership", a fair amount of people equity is lost.

Voting against something simply because you personally would not have utility for it, is fucking retarded and does demonstrate a lack of critical thinking skills, when in the context of utilizing technology and other people to further our cause.

If you really think people voted against it simply because individuals wouldn't have personal utility for the printer maybe you really haven't been paying attention to the discussions. A great point was just made, that finances in general are cloudy. And if our overall finances are cloudy then it's difficult to know if spending $1500 on a printer is 1% or 99% of our overall budget.

And one last thing, why does this need a "business plan" When did occupy become a business ?

A plan is necessary to justify spending. It's just a way to explain the needs and benefits of specific expenses. It's not evil, it's useful.

I am pretty sick of people pretending no research was done, even though it was listed in exquisite detail 7 pages long. Sorry the tons of research didn't include a business plan for a non-business entity, mostly for the same reason I didn't draw up a business plan before I bought my laptop and people don't draw up business plans when then are going to go on a solidarity march.

I have no idea who thinks no research was done. I read the proposal on these forums in its entirety and it was detailed. I simply questioned the need for the printer because I didn't see the need itemized in the plan.

[bucklaw]

The high threshold has never addressed minority concerns, the minority will address their concerns, with their voices. Must be something, interesting coming up since they are changing the voting scheme again. So right after changing the voting scheme and that word fits so well scheme, what will be voted on next?

[Lucas V]

Mcsheffe and Ruth,

It hasn't been transparent because someone needs to step up and do the work. Occupy Chicago doesn't have many people with accounting backgrounds, and the people that can do it have been stretched with other jobs.

However, it is a huge problem so some of us are stepping up and creating a treasury committee. If you would like to help (please!) email octreasury@googlegroups.com. It's looking like our first meeting will be Sunday, but that isn't decided.

bucklaw,

The schedule of votes is posted at http://occupychi.org/secretariat/blog/2 ... n-30-feb-4

Probably not a convenient place for people to find it, I know. We're working on a better system with Tech. Sometime next week, we will probably be voting on the revised Chicago Principles. If you want to see other votes that might be coming up, just monitor these boards.

[Lucas V]

It is absolutely unfair that for something to be passed the presenter must always be its champion, perfect example ? The no end of grief I get over the large format printer.

Todd, this sentiment is a serious problem. No individual should be solely responsible for a proposal that is brought forward. If there aren't a large group of people that can advocate for a proposal, including being prepared to accept friendly amendments and answer clarifying questions then the proposal has more fundamental problems.

To everyone, I'd like to point out that we have built in to our GA's themselves opportunities for consensus building. When concerns are raised in stack, our response should be trying to figure out how to address them. The break out sessions were introduced specifically so that people could discuss their concerns and friendly amendments could be incorporated.

I can say that there have been times where it was clear a proposer did not want to address concerns, and this has pushed people that might have been ambivalent to vote against a proposal.